Get ready for another special bonus episode where Zacc Call joins Erik Soderborg on the "90 Days from Retirement" YouTube channel! They dive deep into the critical art of securing your retirement funds, covering everything from external risks to the internal decisions that could make or break your financial future. The conversation dives deep into the intricacies of risk tolerance, savvy withdrawal strategies, and debunking the 4% rule, all while stressing the need for a personalized approach tailored to your unique circumstances. Erik and Zacc pull back the curtain on the impact of taxes on retirement, delivering a fresh perspective on potential challenges and the absolute necessity for meticulous financial planning. Catch the full video on Erik Soderborg's channel for a complete look into these crucial retirement insights. Ready to supercharge your financial knowledge? Don't forget to explore Erik's website and watch more of his engaging videos on YouTube.
Welcome to the Financial call. We are financial advisors on a mission to guide you through the financial planning everyone should have. Whether you're doing it yourself or working with a financial advisor, these episodes will help you break down complicated financial topics into practical, actionable steps. Our mission is to guide motivated people to become financially successful. Welcome to the Financial call today, we have another special bonus episode for you. This was another visit with the 90 days from retirement YouTube channel. Eric Soderbergh runs that. And we talked about this, he makes a lot of videos helping people prepare for retirement, this was a comprehensive conversation about retirement income risks and solutions. First, we cover five external retirement income risks that are outside your control. These are longevity, meaning how long you might live investment risk sequence of returns risk, which is that one, actually, we have to really flesh out because that's complicated, but it matters probably more than these others. We talked about inflation risk, and the rise in taxes, risk, those are the five external factors. And then we cover five internal risks that you control. I'm not going to list all of these, but these tend to be things like, you live too much for the future, and you don't spend enough in retirement or other people spend too much. And, in fact, the one that we've seen hit the hardest is adult children. But that's also really sensitive, because I'm young today. And I think, just throw this out there, I could see myself spending a lot on my adult children later as well. And so I'm not trying to judge anybody. And I think in fact, there were a lot of comments in the YouTube, there's all the comments. So we try to answer questions that pop up there, there were a bunch of comments about it may be coming across a little bit harsh from somebody who's about 40 years old, claiming to know what to do with other 40 year old adult children. And so I don't I don't know what to do. That's my disclaimer, but I will tell you, it has been one of the things that truly has drawn down a retirement portfolio faster than any of the external risks or the internal risks Anyway, moving on. After we get through that section of the five internal risks. We talked about the main solutions for setting up retirement income, really, you can boil that down to two different types of strategies now and later money, or multi stream. So now and later is more of like a bucketing approach. And multi stream is multiple sources of different styles of income that diversify your income. And we talk about the biggest mistakes people make with their investments in retirement, we talk about how investing is different for a retiree versus a worker. And then we go through most all of the solutions people talk about whether it be bonds, and stocks and annuities and real estate, tons of different things in this was a really comprehensive retirement income conversation with Eric. So if you want to watch the full episode, you can do it on the 90 days from retirement YouTube channel. And we'll put a link for that in our show notes. And you can look at other videos that Eric has done. Otherwise, you can listen to the rest. We'll put it here in this episode. So you can just listen to the audio if that's the way you like to consume these podcasts. Thanks for listening.
All right, Zack Cole is back president of capita Financial Network. Thank you for being back here. Because your videos have been so well received. And your information is so great. So we have some other topics that we really want to address with retirees. And personally for those who are not necessarily to retirement yet, what can we do now? Prepare for ourselves. So before we go too crazy into this, a lot of channels or videos will save the meat for later about what it's all about to get the watch time up. Just tell us right now, what do we need to expect from this episode? Sure, especially since we'll probably go for a while. Today we're talking about withdrawal planning, retirement income strategies, structuring your wealth so that you can avoid the major risks in retirement. And the main thing you need to understand here is that there are some external factors you cannot control. There are some internal factors of which you are in complete control. And then there are strategies for structuring your retirement income. And they really only boil down to what I call now and later money or multi stream strategy. That's the order in which we're going to go through this today. The key thing that people need to walk away and understand is that you cannot control the external factors, you can't decide how much inflation will be, you can't decide what the government's going to do with your tax rates other than your voting, you really have very little control over these first five, external risks or factors. And the reality is, they're not going to make or break your situation either. People are really, really afraid of markets of inflation of taxes. And the reality is those usually don't make people run out of money. I've never met anybody that ran out of money, because taxes are too high. I have absolutely met a lot of people who have run out of money because they can't control how much money they're giving to them.
It's. And so that's that middle section of what are the internal decision making situations that you get into not the external risks, but what's in your power, that is impacting your ability to have enough money throughout retirement, and then also making sure that you hit your goals. So it might not be the risk of running out, it might be the risk of not enjoying life enough, and you end up dying with too much money. That's all in that middle category of what's within your control. In other words, get to the me at the end, I'm going to tell you, I wouldn't overly stress about the external risks things like investment performance, you're doing? Well, it's going to be fine. And you don't need to stress entirely about markets as much or taxes or inflation. Yes, you need an really thought out strategy to manage those external risks. But your biggest risk is yourself. In many ways, those internal factors are so much more impactful to the question of will I run out of money. So we'll talk about those as well. And then lastly, it's just a knowledge thing, where you may structure the portfolio in a way you think, is a bucket approach, or a now and later money approach. But the way that you actually take the money out, is not working. In other words, I know countless people who sell stocks after they're down, just because they're on an automatic monthly withdrawal, that takes money out of the portfolio proportionately. So it's a mistake that people make without even knowing that they're making and many people will go through their entire retirement, and pass away and never know that they even made a mistake, it's something and want to at least expose the issue, and provide what we believe to be a superior option. This is so interesting, when you phrase that just kind of clicked in my head, because it was like the external factors, it seems like if you turn on the TV, or you watch YouTube videos, or whatever it is, it's so focused on, hey, your taxes are gonna go up and out of control the markets, so volatile, everything is good or bad, or whatever else it is. I rarely hear, hey, don't spend so much like stop buying things in terms of like, because all of the marketing and ads and the consumer market of where we live, it is what it is. And then the last part in my mind is almost one of those things where it's over my head, I almost personally bury my head in the sand, you guys take care of it for me. So it's interesting that as you were talking through those, yeah, you're right. The problem is that even on this last category, advisors are not doing it unnecessarily the best. So I'm just throwing it out there. You might say, Oh, this is over my head. But I actually think the consumer needs to understand the structure of what's being proposed to them. Because the structure itself is sometimes wrong, if you can improve the structure, or at least understand how the structure is going to pan out. So I'm being kind of vague. The point is don't sell investments at a loss every month on your automatic withdrawal. Like that's what I'm trying to get at here, we're going to explain how to avoid that. But I can't tell you most retirement income plans, either over limit your access by going too heavy on the insurance side and locking up your money forever, to guarantee you that you'll never lose money ever. Or on the other side, there are a diversified portfolio where they sell growth assets every single month for their cash flow. And I think both of those are a mistake. And there has to be a way to solve for that. And there is there are ways to do it, where you're not experiencing either of those mistakes. There's a huge benefit in flexibility and access and the ability to change your mind about how much money you spend or how you spend your money in general, or who you give your money to. And when you lock it all up, those rights are taken away from you. And then also on the other side, there has to be a way to not sell investments at a loss every month. So anyway, we'll get into that. But the external factors are for sure scary. I do want to note because of past videos and stuff, this is not financial advice for individuals, we're going to talk about these concepts as a whole. Functionally, how they all work. That way as we dive into the demographics of people who watch this, we were talking about this a little bit, we have people who are 18 years old, all the way up to 106 year old, why not believe that 106 year old watched our other video. So the age range here is hugely different. And then also the assets that people have. Some are just starting their careers. Others have multiple millions of dollars. So don't take this as financial advice. Reach out to a financial advisor if you have questions around this specifically for you. If you that 106 year old, like good for you because I'm 39 and Eric's teaching me about YouTube and you're 106 and you're on YouTube consuming. That's just fantastic. I know her personally, Oh, you do a video with her. She's amazing. She's in great shape. That'll be a different conversation, but she exercises every day. Take us through the external factors. The point I wanted to first make was I don't want to be dismissive of these x
Turn off factors because they're not my news is not something you can ignore. And we'll go through each one. And I also want people who are feeling the fear associated with government decision making taxes, policy around inflation, that's a big deal. So I'm not saying they're not a big deal, they're just not as much in your control. So that's the point is what's within your control and what's not. So as we go through this, we'll just hit them. So longevity, that meaning, you live so long, you're the 106 year old gal that you're talking about, that you live so long, that you just live longer than you expected, and you plan for your money to basically run out in your 90s, but you lived another 16 years Good for her. That is longevity risk, it's gonna say something's kind of sad, but I just think people don't live as long as they model out in the retirement income planning tools and analysis, we always model out the most conservative situation. So a financial planner is going to model out what if you live really long, what if you live to 9095 100, where a lot of people end up passing away in their 70s and 80s. And so you have to think about that, when you think about longevity, you also have to think about if you're married, it's actually the probability of one of you making it to your 90s is really high, imagine you flip a coin. And before you get two chances to flip a coin. And before you flip it either time, you have to place a bet on whether or not you're going to get a heads, once it doesn't matter, it just get a heads once between the two flips. Well, that probability is actually pretty decent, you've got two shots at it, if you only have one shot at it, it's 5050. That's easy, but two shots at it, the probability is not 5050, it's actually a lot higher that you get that opportunity. So the point is the same with somebody making it into their 90s. If you're a couple, the odds of one of you making it there is actually pretty high. And so you have to think about longevity that way. But oddly enough, one of my biggest concerns is that people worry about running out of money so much that they don't live a life that they could have in the meantime. So we'll talk about that later, too. But that's longevity investments is the next one. So and what we mean by investments is poor investment decision making, not volatility of the overall market I'm talking about, you put all your money in to one investment. And it went belly up that investment decision making or, for example, you sell it after the market drops, and you lock in losses that you never make back those types of investment decisions, where you put it all in some really illiquid thing that is a private investment that ends up going under, there's a lot of different ideas or all in one stock publicly, you get the idea. But that's more of investment failure, not investment volatility. So that's item two is just investment risk, let's call it items, three is probably the most complicated for us to try to explain. But it's also probably the one that matters the most to people. And it is the fact that there's normal volatility and investments, anybody who builds a reasonably diversified portfolio will have some ups and downs in that portfolio. The next risk is called sequence of returns. And all it is is those ups and downs are going to happen. The downs happen early in retirement for you in the middle or at the end. If the downs happen at the end, it is not a big deal. If the downs happened in the middle, if we divide your retirement a 30 year retirement into three decades, if it's in the second or third decade, that time like the 2008 real estate crisis happens. It's not fun, and you're not sleeping well at night. But it doesn't really cause you to run out of money. If it happens in the first decade, and you are overly exposed to it. That is a massive problem. So it's the order and a way to best describe this is in you know me, I'm a math nerd. I like to explain things with numbers. But I did see this play out in 2008, when people were retiring in 2007 and 2008. And at that time, I worked at a previous employer and my job was to help oversee their investment strategy. They started taking maybe a four or 5% withdrawal from the portfolio. And then the markets dropped and their portfolios went down, in some cases 20 25% Because the market went down 50% And they were all invested in the stock market. But the portfolios went down pretty substantially. Well, then a 25% reduction in the portfolio, if I still maintain the same withdrawal percentage means that I need to cut their expenses from the portfolio their withdrawals by about 25% as well. Imagine you're taking out $20,000 from the portfolio, and I'm now telling you, okay, you can only take $15,000 A year from the portfolio, that's a big deal, especially if it was $2,000 a month and now it's $1,500 a month, and life's not getting cheaper. That's difficult and that was hard and a lot of people don't change their expenses. So then what that means is they're selling more of the portfolio while it's down and that's the sequence of return.
That's the story that I saw play out in 2007, eight and nine quite a bit. But the math, why does this matter? So let's say you have $100,000 portfolio, and you get a 10% return a positive return, well, now it's 110,000, then you get a 10% loss. It's 110,010% of that is $11,000. So now you're down to $99,000. So you started with 110%, gain, 10%, loss, 99,000 finish. So what if we flip the returns, we start, we go, negative 10, then positive 10. Same idea, start with 100,000, negative 10, we're down to 90, because we lose $10,000, we get a 10% return? Well, you started with 90,000, a 10% return is only going to give you $9,000. Back up. And again, we're back to $99,000. So if you watch the last video about Roth and traditional, the point I'm trying to make here is that you could pick any set of returns in any order. And if there's no cash flow in or out of the portfolio, the end dollar amount will be the same, as long as the portfolio experiences the exact same returns in whatever order you want. And that's confusing to people at times. The reason I mentioned that is because you could throw in a 20% gain a 5% loss, and then a 5% loss and a 20% gain, same scenario, you end up with the same dollar amount. Now, here's what matters. If you start introducing any cash flow in or out of the portfolio, all of a sudden, it changes the game entirely. So if you have a 10% gain, and then you take a withdrawal, well, a lot of that withdrawal is just icing on the cake. That was the growth versus if you start with a 10% loss, and then you take money out, well, now you're not only taking your principle, you're taking it off a smaller balance, you're cutting it down. And then now the next year's growth, I'm talking $100,000 portfolio. And if you take out $1,000 after a loss, well that $1,000 doesn't get the growth, and you're going to end up with a different balance. And reality is $1,000. Maybe I'll change this really quick. And that way you can use that as the example. But most people are not withdrawing 1% of the portfolio. Basically, I put in a $5,000 withdrawal, and the end balance is $1,000 different. That's not a huge deal. To have your balance be 1% different between the two scenarios. It is a big deal. When it's only two years, though, and it's 1% different. We have another table where we're talking about sequence where it really matters. This really blew my mind the first time I saw it. Yeah, because I never understood no one had explained it to me until you guys did we planners geek out about this. Just so you know, this is why when we run an analysis of whether or not someone's going to run out of money, they want a straight answer if like, what am I or am I not? It's like, well, I have to run 1000 scenarios, and then throw the market returns in all kinds of crazy orders. compare that against historical returns of your portfolio, the way we're structuring it, and then we give you this funny number, we're like, well, it's probably 90% probability that you will be fine and 10% that you won't and that's not true, either. We'll get into that people want a hard answer. And this is the reason it's difficult is because so this is 25 years, and I think this study may have been a fidelity one I can't remember. But this is a chart produced by someone else, not us, but 25 years. And if you go through a sequence of returns, where the gains are at the beginning, that portfolio starts at 100,000, you're withdrawing, I think it was 5000. So 5% withdrawal. And by the way, the average return is 6.2% in both scenarios, but the early gain ends with $205,000 leftover, so you started with 100 withdrew 5% per year, and then you die with $205,000. That's fantastic. The same returns the same market conditions just in a different order. And you start with 100,000, and you run out in the year 18. You never get to your 25. And it's because the loss has happened early. I know we pause this was only item three out of our five. It's the one that people probably misunderstand the most and need to understand, because it dictates how you structure a portfolio more than anything else. Well, as you mentioned, it's an external factor. When you decide to retire, you can't predict the next 25 years. You can't predict the next five or 10 I think the psychology of money talks about this. A lot of those who chose to retire in 2008 have a much different life than those who chose to retire 10 years later. It's pretty wild. Where does this come into play? This was big news all over the place with the Dave Ramsey saying you should take out a certain percentage does this tie into that at all? Yeah, it does. And we're going to talk a little bit about a mistake I think he spoke and said but before that no one has done more for the individual within a financial crisis than Dave Ramsey's tough love. So let's just like give him some credit for what he's done. A lot of financial advisors and wealth managers don't really focus on the P
People who are in trouble financially, because there's not a lot of opportunity to take them on as a customer. Kudos to Dave Ramsey for really targeting the masses that need the help given him some tough love. And part of his approach is tough love. So sometimes he says things that make seem a little radical. So he came out and said that you should be getting a 12% portfolio return inflation, if it's at 4%, you should be able to take out 8% per year. The problem with that is it only works if the return is constant and exactly 12% Every year, it doesn't work if the 12% is comprised of a negative 25, a positive 40, negative three positive 18, if you have that type of volatility, and by the way, to get a 12% rate of return, you need to subject yourself to a decent amount of volatility, because the stock market long term has been between 10 and 12. And so the stock market long term experiences about a 14.6% drop every year, just buckle up folks like that's part of the game, but it is positive most years. It's one of those situations where if you went to Vegas, there was one blackjack table that had 70 plus percent odds of walking away winning. Obviously, it's not I mean, the house has a slight advantage there. But if you had a 70 plus percent advantage, I would quit my job. And I would sit at the table constantly. And every time I lost, I'd be like, it doesn't matter, I'm going to win 70% of the time, I'll just stay here, I just don't bet the whole farm on one hand, and I'll be fine. And that is the stock market. It's just harder to conceptualize that way. But the point is, back to Dave Ramsey's comment, to get a 12% rate of return, you have to be okay, temporarily losing money, you might be emotionally okay with it. Like maybe you're just got nerves of steel, and you're the individual that their risk tolerance is 110 out of 100. Maybe that's the way you feel about it, it doesn't really matter how you feel, if your money doesn't have enough time to wait. So there's a difference between your risk capacity and your risk tolerance. And young people, it's all the same, they have a high capacity. And so it's the younger you are, the portfolio should be more based on your tolerance, the older you are, the portfolio should be based more on your capacity, because you might be really tolerant. But if you have to take money out of the portfolio to live, it doesn't matter how you felt about it, you still pulled money out when the market was down because you lived on it. So anyway, the problem we run into is that you go back to studies done years ago, and they say, Okay, well, what is the percentage you can take out? If you were to live 30 years, let's mark all of the different 30 year periods over hundreds of years, what is the percentage you could take, and never have to worry about running out of money. And the consensus came back with your studies. And it's been debated over and over again, that 4% is the number so if you've heard the 4% rule, that's what they're talking about. They're saying, we're gonna go back and look at every 30 year window. And if you were to take 4%, and then increase it with inflation over time, you'll be fine in a moderate growth or moderate portfolio. Usually, they're modeling in like a portfolio 60% stocks, 40 bonds. So here you have somebody saying, well, you should earn 12% return 4% inflation take out eight every year. And then you have all a bunch of researchers and people in the industry saying the rule is 4%. And I remember hearing rumors that investment returns with bond rates being lower than they were in the 80s, you really should be looking at three or three and a half percent, and actually think they're as bad on the other side that there is a middle ground here. There are definitely ways to take more than 4% from a portfolio. But once again, going back to your comment about everything's different. If I'm talking to somebody who's 75 years old, the 4% rule is worthless, they don't have nearly the time that they have to make that money last. But if we're talking to somebody retiring at 55, then they're going to need to withdraw a lot less. Okay, so it's all personalized. That was a long explanation of sequence of returns, again, handed to Ramsey and his team for everything they've done for the folks in financial crisis. I don't agree with the idea of withdrawing 8%. I think it's too risky, even the best ways to model it with multistream in common. And now in later money that we'll talk about later, I just can't see it working very well for most people for a 30 year period. And then this isn't the whole point of this one, but maybe you could address to because it was really quick and it wasn't played in most of the stuff where I think it was Rachel his daughter who was saying like, well, what if you don't make it 12%? What if you make a 10? And then he's like, Well 4% Take that out for inflation and then take six and so yeah, how was that still problematic of taking that as that tying into this sequence of returns? Yeah, that's actually as well that I like that strategy. I like that concept. Most people are not willing to adjust their spending like that. I actually very much respect that. I have found that that's one of the best ways to in
Increase the initial withdrawal percentage. So in other words, if you don't like the 4% rule, then you can make trade off, you can say, okay, I can start spending way more than 4%. If in the future, I'm willing to adapt it down, the 4% rule is designed for somebody who's hopping in an airplane, putting it on autopilot, and sitting in the back, and there's no pilot upfront. Now, if you're willing to make adjustments along the flight path, then you can start with a higher percentage than four. And what Rachel is what she's talking about, there is the mid flight adjustment. If that can be done, then you can start with a much higher withdrawal percentage, I guess my question is, I usually don't go as high as eight, when things are really good, I don't like to take the entire growth of the portfolio. Because if you leave a little bit of the growth as a buffer, that means you can still withdraw when you actually lose. So I guess my question in that scenario is, what would they do? When the market goes down? 25%, and their portfolio goes down 10 Or 15? Or 20, then would they deposit money? Because that math, inflation at 4%? Are you going to deposit 24% into the portfolio, you know what I mean? Like, that's where I'd start to wonder, maybe they would just completely stop spending for some retirement income situations, that might be fine. If you have a pension, social security, and your withdrawals from your account are just icing on the cake that might work for you. But if all you have is your withdrawals from the portfolio, it's really hard to just live on nothing for a year. That was an awesome breakdown of sequence of returns there. I hope. So it's a weird concept to try to understand. The other one is inflation. And this one is number four, external factors that you don't have real control over inflation is a scary one, it has been a non issue for almost 1015 years, until this last year or so when we finally saw numbers in the eight to 9% range over a 12 month period. But we've been modeling in inflation of two or three, or sometimes more percent in terms of how much our expense is going to go up. And we just haven't seen that we've seen it at near zero to one and two for the last decade and change, which is it's been interesting. Now we finally saw an eight or a 9%, which some people take that and say, See, it's going to be awful. It's going to be eight or 9%. Forever. There's a recency bias in that we think what's happened recently is what will happen forever. Yeah, it was eight or 9% Recently, but if we take the average of that eight, or 9%, over the last 12 months, plus 15 years of near zero, then the average is actually fairly low for a while I do think inflation is coming. We all feel it right now, Goldman just actually put out their projection on overall markets and their projections. So it's right now, I don't know when people will be watching this, but it's December in 2023, you know, and they put out their their overall projections. And they feel as though the government has done a good job to stave off more inflation by keeping rates as high as they have. And they actually talked about a potential for the government next year to be able to decrease rates a little bit. And so that's, they talk positively not like super optimistically, but positively about things. So in other words, that's a quick explanation of inflation. It is an issue, it matters. And specifically, I'm just going to talk about some there's were inflation, and then there's your withdrawal, inflation, not the same number. So let's say somebody has $100,000 worth of expenses. And most people have Social Security income, for the sake of keeping math easy, we're going to pretend they don't all they have as $100,000 of expenses, and they are going to take all $100,000 from their investment portfolios. So if inflation is, let's say, We model out two and a half percent, then next year, they need to take out 102,500, because of two and a half percent inflation growth. That's about as simple as it comes where the actual inflation on expenses matched the increased withdrawal you needed to take from your portfolio, the same situation, what if they have $100,000 of expenses, but they have Social Security income, let's say they have security income for $50,000, between the couple, and then they also have a pension of $40,000 pension that doesn't go up with inflation at all. So security does get cost of living adjustments, but we never model in that they'll be as kind to keep up with inflation rate that so we're modeling a really low number on that, but that their expenses are going up faster, and their pensions not going up at all. Okay, so they have $90,000 of income. That's not climbing, let's say you model out two and a half percent inflation on the expenses. So we know it went from 100 to 102 102 and a half.
And their 90,000 of income maybe went up to 91 or 92. So they are not climbing their fixed income is not climbing very fast. Their total expenses are going up by inflation. So the gap between the two is getting bigger, faster, so their actual rate at
which they have to increase their withdrawals from their portfolio might be 4567 8%, when inflation is only two or three. So that's a weird concept. Again, weird math. And we run into this all the time. And it's one of the reasons I actually struggle and get frustrated with a lot of financial planning software, because a lot of the software will either oversimplify it, and they will say, alright, inflation is two. So the withdrawals will go up by two, everything's going up by two. No, first of all, I want their fixed income to not go up because some of it doesn't. And their withdrawals are, we need to model out like a four or 5% increase on how much they're taking from the portfolio's to keep up with a 2% overall inflation. So inflation is not just the external factor, it's are you actually modeling out the right retirement income picture? Because your withdrawal inflation might be higher than actual inflation? Interesting? Yeah, it's a weird situation that we run into. Okay. And then the last one is dramatic changes in taxes. So this is a hot button here, you are not kidding. We did the Roth and traditional video, and I feel like this was probably the biggest tax rates are absolutely going up. And by the way, we agree, the point was, what do you think will happen, and that should help you make your decision around that tax rates are likely to go up. A lot of people who make the two or three or $400,000 working, they oftentimes only show one or 200,000 in retirement. So although the tax rates for each bracket may go up, you may drop a couple brackets, and so your tax rate may go down, it's not as simple as to say, the government will increase tax rates, therefore, I will pay more in taxes, because you may drop brackets. So that's part of the tricky part. Now, once you're in retirement, usually you don't change brackets too frequently, you start to find a groove and you end up in that bracket. And the reality is, there are so many voters in the bottom three tax brackets, and the 10% right now 12 and 22. After 2025. It'll be 1015 and 25. That's a change, meaning Yes, we know tax rates are going up in 2026. there for sure going up. And I think a lot of people in the comments are saying, Oh, they're going through the roof. And the reality is, that's true, the top tax bracket was 90%. back decades ago, imagine thinking if I earn another dollar, I have to pay 90 cents of it away in taxes federally, and then your state on top of that wasn't it's not worth it anymore. So the point is, that was the top bracket, those first three brackets, you're somewhat insulated, you're a big voting population, you're not going to be put in a spot where you have to, I just don't think you're as much risk as somebody in the next three tax brackets. I think that's an important distinction to make those that again, taxes are always harped on for better or worse, or whatever, and media outlets. And so it's that marginal tax isn't important. Yeah. And most retirees end up in the bottom three tax brackets. Let's talk about the company that you're in, in that bottom three tax brackets, you've got young couples, absolutely struggling to pay for homes, and you may have a mortgage that's $500 to $1,000, but their mortgage is four grand for the same house, they are struggling, and you're in the same boat as them from a tax standpoint, for when you look at your 1040 it looks the same as theirs in terms of how wealthy or how well off you are, I think the government can't really hit you too hard. Or else they hit a lot of really, really struggling families. And then they have upheaval in the voting. It looks like the five reasons that are external factors that you would run out of money, is there anything else you would want other than so we talked about longevity risk, you just live a really long time, and good for you. And we talked about investment decision risk. And that's just you put it all in one thing, or you put it in something poor and it just didn't perform well, then the third one is also investment related. But it's you didn't do anything wrong. The market just moved up and down at the wrong time for you. That's sequence of returns risk. That's the one we spent a lot of time on. And then inflation. So that was number four, how fast are things getting more expensive for you? And based on your composition of your other income? Is your withdrawal inflation a lot higher than actual inflation? Or is it pretty close to actual inflation? And then number five is taxes, a dramatic change in taxes. All five of these are factors. All five of these should be managed. All five of these are important. Most of these aren't going to make you run out of money. And it seems like as you go through those, if one of them happens, the odds of one of those happening to a degree where it will just ruin you doesn't seem super high. But if multiple of those happen all at once, then things start to get a bit crazy. Talk about taxes if you're in the second or third tax bracket.